Dismiss Notice
Welcome to
Pinewood Derby Online, a forum for questions and discussions about everyone's favorite gravity powered racers!
CLICK HERE to register as a member today for full access to the forum, it's fast, simple, and absolutely free!

Which wheel is prefered the Revell or BSA?

Discussion in 'Wheels and Axles' started by NastyNoah, Mar 29, 2017.

Tags:
  1. NastyNoah

    NastyNoah Bent Axle

    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Grand Prairie, TX
    I recently bought several lots of wheels on ebay. One was a few sets of Revell wheels and axles, the other was BSA. Is there a preference for one or the other. In our Cub races I can run either, and from what I can tell the Revell seemed to beat the BSA, but I have seen no mention of this in the forum.
    Thanks
     
  2. HAB

    HAB Pinewood Ninja

    Messages:
    40
    Likes Received:
    19
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Gender:
    Male
    I'm fairly new to pinewood derby stuff but as I recall from the forum posts the Revell wheels are heavier which is not good and there is something different about he hub taper as well. The Revell axles don't have the crimp marks, are rounder, and easier to polish, but are a smaller diameter than BSA axles which is not ideal. I/m sure someone with more experience will chime in shortly to correct me if needed.
     
  3. MrRoadWarrior

    MrRoadWarrior Pinewood Ninja

    Messages:
    51
    Likes Received:
    9
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Gender:
    Male
    HAB basically nailed it. Those Revell wheels can make a nice show piece but I wouldn't race them competitively. Some BSA mold #s have a better concentric tolerance bore to outside diameter. Match the mold #s, true and polish them.
     
  4. NastyNoah

    NastyNoah Bent Axle

    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Grand Prairie, TX
    Should I use the axles from the Revell wheels? They have no crimp marks and seem rounder.
     
  5. MrRoadWarrior

    MrRoadWarrior Pinewood Ninja

    Messages:
    51
    Likes Received:
    9
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Gender:
    Male
    My brother and I live in different states and we've both won our local scout races with Revell axels. If you have to use the slots they might not fit well into the body. I've also won at the local level with the BSA axles. Basically how much prep do you want to do. With a small file, you can easily remove the BSA imperfections.
     
  6. HAB

    HAB Pinewood Ninja

    Messages:
    40
    Likes Received:
    19
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Gender:
    Male
    I would check the axle diameter before deciding, I think I remember reading that the older Revell axles had a larger diameter. Lots of races have been won with both BSA and Revell axles and tires. If the Revells are smaller than the BSA axles I would likely use the BSA axles. The BSA axles are more of an oval shape, from the axles I have looked at, the flashing under the nail head to the axle shaft seems to be the widest part of the axle. I mark mine by cutting tuning groove across the nail head before I remove the flashing so I know which way to orient the axle on the car. Others on this forum have suggested to run the wide part of the axle front to back to reduce toe in/out concerns. Ideally you want the largest axle and the smallest tire hub to eliminate wobble which results in loss of speed. Again I'm new at this, others are much more knowledgeable than I.
     
  7. Pacfanweb

    Pacfanweb League Racer

    Messages:
    315
    Likes Received:
    59
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Main advantage of the Revell axles (speaking only from the ones I've worked with) are: They tend to be straighter. They are much easier to polish. No flashing at all under the head to deal with.

    Disadvantage: They tend to be smaller.

    I use them for the girl scouts and cubs because in the build days I host, they are simply faster and easier for the kids to get them done with minimal assistance.

    Can't imagine that anyone would use them at the pro level, but most folks aren't talking about that when they are asking these questions.
     
    NastyNoah likes this.
  8. HAB

    HAB Pinewood Ninja

    Messages:
    40
    Likes Received:
    19
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Gender:
    Male
    Great reply Pac and Road! My answer should have been qualified with - depends on tools & equipment available, how much time/effort is willing to be spent, and what is the build end goal!

    I often had/have a difficult time separating pro answers from good enough for scout answers and how that information applies to me when learning by reading through these threads (like the differences in axle polishing & the speed notch for oil vs. graphite). I'm certainly not a pro, and not even a good scout race builder yet - heck I am still fighting getting my drill press table and drill chuck perpendicular and the run out minimized - LOL.

    Nasty - All that said my son won his den race and just missed out on a trophy in his pack race with Revell tires and axles this year despite over coning a hub (junk tools, bad internet information, and inexperience but those are other threads) that resulted in the tire rubbing on the body, skinny axles from over polishing, and being a three wheel non rail runner. I used Revell because that's what was available at the time and before I found this site.
     
  9. NastyNoah

    NastyNoah Bent Axle

    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Grand Prairie, TX
    Thank guys. HAB your reply brings up more questions for me. Should I notch the axles for graphite, or oil, and what is the best way to cone a hub?
     
  10. HAB

    HAB Pinewood Ninja

    Messages:
    40
    Likes Received:
    19
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Gender:
    Male
    There is mixed info on notching axles for graphite I think most would say its not necessary for graphite, I believe it is said that it is a must do for oil. That said I haven't gotten into the oil stuff yet. I notch mine because the 3 notches on the BSA axles are in the exact place the groove should be. My thinking is that if I cut a groove where the 3 notches are that I stand a better chance of not removing more axle diameter than if I tried to sand the whole axle to get them off. I am still trying to get my drill press table level with the chuck and run out to an acceptable level to cut good notches with a file. Uneven notches can cause wheel chatter/vibration which slows you down.

    Do NOT cone your hubs. The junk hub coning tool sold can scratch your wheel bore and is not a close enough tolerance between the tool pin and hub which can cause the hub to not be square to the body. Personal experience says it is also very easy to remove to much of the hub which will cause the outside of the tire to rub on the car. I believe the consensus here is to leave the tires (other than polishing the bore) completely alone, not even to sand the tread marks unless you have the proper equipment (lathe) and plan to ruin lots of tires before getting it right. Most of the tire mandrels on the market have to much slop in them, that will cause the tires to not spin true. The threads on the mandrel can scratch the wheel bore. The mandrel could also damage the inner and outer hubs. Most drill presses have more run out than desired. Those things combined can cause you to make the wheel worse than it was before you started.

    I use some very thin 3M aluminum tape on my mandrel to make the hub tight, when I feel that I need to do something to the tire tread to make the tire work. I also don't tighten the mandrel very much.

    I just got through prepping (10) tires I did sand some of the treads lightly to get rid of a casting bump. After polishing and burnishing the hubs I ground the inner hub face into the graphite on the paper plate I was using to catch the excess. I can say that between the polishing and the grinding of the hub into the DD4H graphite the tires would spin very well even when they contacted my finger.

    I bought a bunch of axles and tires and started playing with different ways to accomplish what I wanted to do and learn to set up the tools I am using. You will have a bunch of junk but will start to figure out better ways of doing things as you go. Stock BSA tires are cheap $2 per set at the scout store and they come with axles. Bulk BSA axles are also very cheap from DD4H or other stores. Get a bunch and start playing!
     
  11. NastyNoah

    NastyNoah Bent Axle

    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Grand Prairie, TX
    Well I just happen to have one of those hand lathes that the hub tool goes into, but I also have a wood lathe. Are either of these recommended for use on wheels.
     
  12. HAB

    HAB Pinewood Ninja

    Messages:
    40
    Likes Received:
    19
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Gender:
    Male
    If you mean the hub step remover tool that fits over the hub tool that is designed to remove the second shoulder of the outside hub, most will say it is difficult if not impossible to get a good repeatable result and to stay away from it. There is to much slop between the pin and the hub to keep the cut even/level. The step remover tool also needs to be sharpened and honed flat out of the box and then sharpened often.

    Using a lathe is out of my wheel house, but do a search on the forum and you will find that it can be done with the right jaw and tools as well as lots of practice. Your lathe will have to have near zero run out to be effective. The guys turning wheels usually cut their own pins and use a friction fit set up to hold the wheels on the lathe. To remove the second step I believe a special holder (pot holder or something like that) is used, it holds the tire around the outside of the tread, or you could turn something to hold it yourself. Again lots of information on here about turning wheels on a lathe.

    Give it the hub tool a shot and try your hand at the lathe............just don't do it the night before a race or without a set of back up tires already sitting on the bench ready to go!
     
  13. bracketracer

    bracketracer PWD Royalty Pro Racer

    Messages:
    1,765
    Likes Received:
    147
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    STL
    I've never used one, but I understand that the hand lathe is a good way to wear yourself out. Not so good for wheels though. The wood lathe I have used. On wood. I don't think I would try cutting wheels on it. Turning two wheels the same would require quite a bit of patience I bet. A metal lathe does a much better job.
     
    Charles Studer likes this.
  14. slipstream

    slipstream Pinewood Ninja Pro Racer

    Messages:
    51
    Likes Received:
    11
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    orem utah
    I help my brother 2 kids the won 1 & 2 at pack 1 & 6 at district and 1 & 3 at council. here is what was done.

    Pack: the only thing different were the axles zinc vs revell. both used revell wheel prepped with novas #2 (do this 2 times to get it looking acceptable), Meguiar's NXT 2.0 wax. both used lemon pledge and winderby graphite. both polished axles to 8,000. They ran 3.04 on the 1st 2 runs and lost .01 sec every race after. final times were 3.10 and 3.13. this was NOT acceptable for district racing.

    District: 1st place car we moved to BSA wheels and we re prepped all wheels on both cars with novas #2, zero friction, and red rocket, my brother used the wrong graphite some" tube of graphite" (this is junk stay AWAY) the times were the exact same only the times fell much faster especially for car #2 on revell wheels. .012 to .015. the last race the 1st place car was slower then the 2nd place car but the average time keep him in 1st.

    Council: we re did all wheel with the new black ice system, and use the Hob-E-Lube graphite the run times dropped and held consistent longer and only dropped a total of .05 off the average times on both cars. final times were 3.04 and 3.05

    both cars were near identical in all aspects but the axles and wheel change. I would say use the revell axles if you cant use any other aftermarket axles. and polish with 2000 or higher. did I see speed difference in wheels? NO only in polishing BSA are easier and look shiner. I wouldn't use the BSA axles it takes to long to remove the crip marks and polish, when I did this the diameter was much smaller then I would ever use ever again.
     
  15. e/o

    e/o Pinewood Ninja

    Messages:
    58
    Likes Received:
    29
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    We used Revell axles for the first time this year. I was concerned because they were slightly smaller diameter than the BSA axles BEFORE we sanded and polished them. But they were around the same size AFTER prep because we seem to need to take more material off the BSA axles to get them ready to go. Maybe I'm prepping the BSA axles wrong, but we'll use the Revells going forward, because we seem to get a same or slightly better (because they appear rounder) end product with them for much less work.
     
  16. Charles Studer

    Charles Studer League Racer Pro Racer

    Messages:
    346
    Likes Received:
    149
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Colorado Springs
    Mentioned.
     
    Loud2ns likes this.
  17. philcav7

    philcav7 Pack Champion

    Messages:
    17
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    PA
    With mentions of older/newer Revell wheel kits being bigger/smaller by date. Is there a way to determine dates of the Revell axles/wheels?

    I have a few sets of Revell and the axles look better than the BSA offerings. Is the consensus to use Revell axles with the larger diameter and pair with the lightest, roundest, tightest bore wheel regardless of brand?
     
  18. Charles Studer

    Charles Studer League Racer Pro Racer

    Messages:
    346
    Likes Received:
    149
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Colorado Springs
    Sounds like a winner
     
  19. Keith A.

    Keith A. Hammering Axles

    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Florida
    So it’s 2021 and I’m back!! Stumbled on this thread and wanted to see if anyone had found the optimal “OEM” combo of axles and wheels for Cub racing?

    My kids had great success last year with the Revell wheels and axles. (1st and 3rd in their pack) I literally did nothing to them other than polishing the bores and proper burnishing.

    I noticed the main difference with the Revells over stock was that they are made in China, have different copyright symbols, and definitely have the tighter bore. Some have said this is bad.

    My question is: is there a better aftermarket wheel to buy that pairs with the amazing stock Revell axle?
     
  20. Hangtime

    Hangtime Pinewood Ninja

    Messages:
    40
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Iowa
    I’m also curious about the proper fit of axle to wheel bore. I’m guessing that tighter is better until you go too far. So, how loose should it be?
     

Share This Page